gooood Interview NO.18 – Zhang Lei
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Dec 16, 2022 10:18 AM
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gooood团队采访世界各地的有趣创意人，欢迎您的推荐和建议。 第18期为您奉上的是张雷联合建筑事务所创始人张雷。更多关于他：AZL Architects on gooood。
gooood team interviews creative from all over the world. Your recommendations and suggestions are welcomed! gooood Interview NO.18 introduces Zhang Lei. More: AZL Architects on gooood.
出品人：向玲 Producer: Xiang Ling 编辑团队：向玲，武晨曦，陈诺嘉，鹿璐 Editor: Xiang Ling, Wu Chenxi, Chen Nuojia, Lu Lu
▼视频 Video （全文深度采访见下方文字。视频为4分钟精华版，建议选择蓝光1080p观看。）
Interviewgooood x Zhang Lei 张雷
1.
纵观您整个创作的历程，各个作品间没有固定的风格与形式，请问您是如何看待形式？Making a general review of your projects and practices, we would like to know if there is a constant form and what is your opinion of form?
形式是结果不是目的，我希望我们的作品没有风格，但特点鲜明，直达人心。风格与形式不重要，好的作品主要看气质，关键有特点，成败在细节。我希望我们的设计能一直坚守目前商业性需求主导下，设计行业所普遍缺乏的纯净气质，干干净净在如今浮躁的社会现实下是非常宝贵的特质。
What I pursue is not form. I want our projects to have no constant style. They should have their own characteristics that could reach people’s heart. Temperament is the core character of good architecture. It should have a distinctive feature and the details are critical. I hope that my design could remain its purity under the leading requirements of commercial building. It is a precious character which is scarce in this impetuous society.
▼张雷部分作品，some projects of Zhang Lei
2.
您建筑创造的理念是什么？What is your design concept?
建筑设计是一个满足需求解决问题的过程，解决问题的办法越简单越好。十多年前我提出了基本建筑的理念，倡导向没有建筑师的建筑学习，设计解题要一针见血直截了当，用现在时髦的话说，就是不装不作；或者说装要巧妙，作要适度。我不太看好被广泛宣扬夸大的所谓设计的原创性，好的设计更多是在尊重经验，运用常识。
在气质纯净的基础上，我们还希望建筑能够有神秘的气场和浪漫的气息，一个好建筑，它应该是酷、趣、萌这三点的结合。很多建筑师设计师希望自己的作品要酷，这多多少少还容易做到，但是把趣和萌结合进去，就是严峻的挑战。酷往往是表象，耐不住时间，趣和萌是内在生活内容，是纯真质朴的初心回归，回归自然，回归生活，人和建筑空间建立更加亲密的关系。
Architecture design is a process of problem solving and it is better to be simple. More than 10 years ago I put forward the idea of basic architecture, encouraging architects to study from architecture without architects. We should solve complex design problems in a direct way that hits home. In the saying of the recent popular words is not being affectation, or being smart and appropriate in practice. On the other hand, I don’t think originality is that important as people advocating. A good design should respect the common sense and former experience.
Besides, we hope our projects could have charisma as well as romantic atmosphere. A good architecture, in my point of view, should including the characteristics of coolness, fun and loveliness. Many architects or designers are chasing for a cool project, which could be easily achieved. However, when involving in fun and loveliness, things would be more challenging. Coolness is just the appearance which could not last long, while fun and loveliness are the inner character of life. They bring people back to nature and build up closer relationship between them and architecture.
▼张雷代表作 – 混凝土缝之宅，Master Project – Concrete Slit House ©Iwan Baan
▼张雷代表作 – 南京万景园小教堂（点击这里查看更多）Master Project – Nanjing Wanjing Garden Chapel (click HERE to view more) ©姚力 Yao Li
▼张雷代表作 – CIPEA四号住宅，Master Project – CIPEA 4# House ©姚力 Yao Li
3.
目前事务所进行中的主要项目类型是什么？事务所的构建与构架模式是怎样的？您希望未来事务所发展成什么样？ What is the major type of your ongoing project? What is the structure and system of your studio? And what would be the future development?
事务所的项目类型主要包括文化类项目，大型城市公建和开发项目，产业园类项目以及和乡村复兴有关的度假及改造类项目等，从实验性小建筑到大型城市综合体，各种规模都有涉及。
事务所构架是合伙人制，绝大部分项目由我担任设计主持，主创建筑师兼项目经理负责具体工作，建筑师和助理建筑师参与形成设计团队。我希望事务所今后能保持在80到100人的规模，成为兼具学术探索性和专业实践性的先锋设计机构。
Our office mainly focus on cultural projects, large-scale urban development, industrial park and resort or renovation projects that related to countryside reviving. The projects are in various scales from experimental small house to city complex.
The studio runs in a partnership and I take the initiative for most projects. Design principals and project managers are responsible for the design process, working with the design team composed by architects and assistants. The scale of the office would be controlled in 80 to 100 people. I hope that my studio could develop simultaneously in both academic and professional ways.
▼文化项目 – 南京大学博物馆，Cultural Project – Museum of Nanjing University
▼文化项目 – 南京美术馆新馆，Cultural Project – New Nanjing Art Museum
▼文化项目 – 福州阳光城登云艺术中心，Cultural Project – Dengyun Art Center
▼大型城市项目 – 龙湖金融中心三区C4-06地块，Large-scale City Project – Zhengdong New District Longhu CBD C4-06
▼乡村项目 – 云夕汤山酒店，Rural Project – Yunxi Tangshan Hotel
4.
您早期作品中，建筑外观的纯粹性和内部空间感受的丰富性形成了鲜明的对比，您是如何看待和把握建筑外观和内在的反差？近期作品中的本土性和地域性越发强烈，请分享最近几年在建筑创造上思考总结。 In your early works, there reveals a contrast between the purity of surface and the expressive sense of interior. How did you handle this？ And the indigenous and regional character apparently reveals in the latest works, will you introduce some of your reflections and conclusions in architecture design?
存在就是一组内外关系，任何事物都具有两面性，表面看起来越浪漫，背后越是苦逼；简单的事物背后一定存在不为人知的复杂关系。要把简单这个表面文章做好，需要丰富的内容支撑，设计就是要把这样一种看似矛盾的关系恰当地表达出来。纯净的气质是表象，它的背后是复杂的需求，物质的舒适性，精神的仪式感。除此之外，还有支撑表面形态的结构性和技术性要求，以及材料的适宜性选择。我们希望把建筑内在的丰富性和纯净的形态很好地统合起来，表达内外一致的复杂关系。
Existence reveals a relationship of internal and external. There exists dual character in each object. The more romantic it looks, the more painful it leaves behind. Furthermore, the things of simplicity must have its complex parts of which is unknown. To make the surface batter, you need a richness of internal as a base. And that contradiction relation is what the design trying to reveal properly. The temperament of purity is superficial while the complicated needs, the comfort of objects, and the ceremony of the spirit stays behind. Besides, you have to think about in which structure would make the form and the technical requirements feasible, plus the material selection. We would like tointegrate the interior richness with the exterior purity and to find a better way of expressing this complicated relationship.
▼早期作品 – 国家遗传工程小鼠资源库办公与实验楼，外观纯粹。Early works – Office and Experiment Building for the National Genetic Engineering Mouse Repository, which appearance is pure.
▼近期作品 – 先锋云夕图书馆，地域性更加强烈（点击这里查看更多）Recent works – Yunxi Librairie Avant-Garde, which is of more local character. (click HERE to view more) ©姚力 Yao Li
我们的作品没有刻意考虑地域性、地方性这些问题。我的态度一直都是用最简单最有效的方法去面对复杂的需求。要简单有效就必须因地制宜，只有深入了解每个项目所处的环境，周边的条件以及适用的资源，才能找到简单有效、直接有力的方式方法。
I am not considering rationality and locality in particular. My point is to solve the problem in the simplest and the most efficient way. While to remain this, is to basing on local conditions. And only by knowing better the local environment, the surroundings and the available sources, can we find the simplest and the most direct way to solve the complex problems.
▼先锋云夕图书馆，因地制宜地解决问题（点击这里查看更多）Yunxi Librairie Avant-Garde, making use of the surroundings to solve the architectural problem (click HERE to view more) ©姚力 Yao Li
5.
最近几年您进行了不少的乡村实践，您如何看待现在的乡建大潮？你认为其中的危机还有机遇分别是什么？你认为建筑师在其中应该起到什么样的作用？ You have had many rural practices, so what is your opinion of this trend of rural constructions? What is the opportunity and threat? What should be the role of architects?
从城市到乡村最大的好处就是能够真正体会到建筑和人之间亲密的联系，这是城市建筑往往被视为生产工具所难以获得的体验，其次在乡村还能体会到合理的建造方式。这两点对于回归建筑学学科本原非常重要，发展的可持续性是由价值观决定的，三观正才能走得远。长期在城市工作的建筑师对乡村的了解往往有限，加上乡村项目约束条件比较少，建筑师很容易自己爽一下就走了，设计成果和真正的乡村需求往往差距较大。乡村是最后的空间奢侈品，把最先进的技术和有思想有情怀的人带到乡村，和乡村环境条件有效结合，是改善乡村复兴人文的最好结果。
The best part in the rural is that you could get to know better the relationship of the architecture and people. This merely happens in the big cities, where architectures are seen as production tools. Besides, you will find the appropriate way in construction. These two points above are very important for the principle of architecture. The sustainable development is defined by the value. A good value leads your way further. Architects who spend most of their lives in the city would have a limited understanding of the rural places. Plus there is little restriction in the rural projects; architects are more like making their own fun from the project and leave the outcome far from the real needs. Rural place is the last space for us to cherish, thus,only by combining high technology and individuals who love the countryside together, could we reach a better outcome.
▼先锋云夕图书馆，在乡村可以更深地体会人与建筑的关系以及合理的建造方式（点击这里查看更多）Yunxi Librairie Avant-Garde, have deeper understand of intimate relationship between people and architecture while using reasonable construction method (click HERE to view more) ©（左）胡军 Hu Jun,（右）姚力 Yao Li
▼南京老门东先锋书店骏惠书屋，保留原本富有特色的建造方式，Nanjing Librairie Avant-Garde, the impressive construction style is remained ©贾方 Jia Fang
6.
请分享一下您的民宿项目，这类型项目建成后能及时得到用户反馈，对这样的作品有哪些更深层次的体会？ Please introduce us some of your guest house projects. Projects like this are more easily to get the feedbacks, so what is your understanding of this kind?
我在南大研究生教学中一直倡导向没有建筑师的建筑学习，到乡村是身体力行，也是希望为乡村复兴做一些有价值的工作。我们在桐庐莪山畲族乡戴家山村帮助当地做了一些项目，包括秘境山乡生活民宿，把南京先锋书店引进到了这个偏僻的小山村，在那里开了小书店，然后把乡政府给我们做工作室的房子进行改造，就是现在的云夕戴家山乡土艺术酒店，戴家山村这样一个完全不为人知的偏僻小山村如今成了当地乡村复兴的典范，村里不少村民也开始利用自家的房子做民宿。通过建筑师的引领，有情怀有思想有能力的人和适宜的建造技术和乡土结合，村里出去打工的年轻人也开始回家，大山深处的小山村又重新有了活力和动力。在桐庐持续四年的工作使得我们对民宿这一项目类型有了深刻的理解，纯净的气质，神秘的气场，浪漫的气息的建筑认知也正是源于以民宿为主的乡村实践，乡土精品酒店项目也成为我们工良的作室重点研究的类型，桐庐故事仍在延续，他乡传奇已经开始。
In the postgraduate teaching, I am always imparting the idea of “learning from the architecture built without architects”. For me, heading for the rural places is to participate in the process of rural revival and perform things practical and valuable. I implemented some projects in Daijiashan village, Tonglu, including the guesthouses and helped to bring in the Nanjing Xianfeng Bookstore. Moreover, we transferred the house, which was provided by the local authorities for us, into Yunxi Daijiashan Local Art Hotel. Soon after that, Daijiashan village has changed its character from an unknown faraway village into a good a good example of the rural revival. Many villagers were willing to start their own business of guesthouse since then. By the leading work of architects, and with the combination of the talents, the building technology and the locality, the migrant villagers are coming back home. In such a deep mountain village, the vitality and dynamic is rising. The four years’ project in Tonglu made us understood better of the guesthouse practices. The recognition of “the temperament of purity, the outstanding charm and the romantic flavor” is also coming from the guesthouse practices we implemented in rural places. The rural boutique hotels are becoming our main case studies. The story of Tonglu is unfinished, and it is on its way to be a legend.
▼民宿项目 – 云夕戴家山乡土艺术酒店，Guest house – Daijiashan Local Art Hotel ©姚力 Yao Li
▼民宿项目 – 云夕小熊堡，Guest house – Yunxi Xiaoxiongbao ©（上）姚力 Yao Li,（下）侯博文 Hou Bowen
7.
您在上面的回答提到了向没有建筑师的建筑学习的理念，请问如果中国的工业化程度等同于西方，这种学习还有必要吗，或者说学习的侧重点会有哪些不一样？ You have mentioned above the idea of “we should learn from the architecture without architect”, so what if the process of industrialization in China equals to that in the western countries, is it still necessary to learn in this way, or would the emphasis changes?
向没有建筑师的建筑学习和工业化建造没有直接关系。向没有建筑师的建筑学习，是更好地理解人和建筑关系的有效途径，也可以帮助我们认知合理的建造方式，坚持因地制宜的设计态度，是向建筑学本原的回归，这也是我一直倡导的基本建筑的核心内容。
There is no direct relation between this idea and the process of industrialization. To learn from the architecture without architect is a better way of understanding the relationship of people and the architecture, and could help us better in understanding the constructions and then persist the attitude of basing on local conditions. This is the regression of the principle of architecture and the core content of architecture that I have always been advocating.
8.
相比乡村，中国城市是否不适合做建筑学的探讨？ Do you think city, as a place, is not suit for architecture study when comparing to the rural places?
我不太思考这些宏大严肃的问题。对我而言，每一个项目都有不同的工作条件，面对不同的挑战，设计就是解决问题，在城市往往是高密度、商业化需求条件下的创造和改变；到农村则更多是要敬畏环境尊重文脉。我不太相信解决不好城市问题的建筑师能把乡村问题解决好，反过来也是一样。
I actually not usually think about such huge and serious problems. For me, each project has a different conditions and different challenges to face. To design is to solve problems, which in urban places, the problems are the creations and transformations under a high density and the commercial society; while in rural places, those become respecting the nature. I don’t believe the architects who do worse in the urban will do better in the rural places, and vice versa.
▼因地制宜的设计 – 云夕深澳里书局，Design responding to different conditions – Shenaoli Library ©姚力 Yao Li
▼因地制宜的设计 – W住宅，Design responding to different conditions – W House ©侯博文 Hou Bowen
▼因地制宜的设计 – 郑东新区龙湖金融中心外环C3-11地块酒店公寓，Design responding to different conditions – Zhengdong New District Longhu CBD C3-11 Service Apartment Project
9.
您多次实践都挑战了45天工业化快速建造体系，且建成质量与完成度优异，请问您是如何有信心挑战这样的体系？又是如何实现沟通协作与管理协调？ Many of your practices have challenged 45-day’s of fast construction system, and they are all impressive. What makes you confident in this system and how to coordinate the communication with management?
我们的工作方式以及我个人解决问题的习惯就是直接了当，对项目实施过程中涉及的问题提前预估反应迅速。项目成功的关键是材料和建造策略的选择以及在过程中合理高效的设计决定。我们工作室没有节点库，每个项目都有它适合的材料和建造方式，没有标准答案。
The way we are working and the way of my self-problem-solving is direct, for which we could have the quick response of each problem involved. The way to succeed in the quick design is to make appropriate decisions and to save more time in the design process. We don’t have a node stock since each project has its appropriate materials or construction methods. Therefore, there is no standard answer.
▼45天建造的南京江宁石塘互联网会议中心（点击这里查看更多）Nanjing Jiangning Shitang Internet Conference Center which was constructed in 45 days (click HERE to view more) ©侯博文 Hou Bowen
10.
对建筑表皮的理解以及如何选择材料？ What is your understanding of building skin and how do you choose the material for it?
建筑表皮有助于表达作品的整体性和表现力。我们所希望的纯净的气质，对表皮的运用往往会有较高的要求。对于建筑而言，去掉以后也不影响其基本功能的那部分外立面构件我们称之为表皮，它必须和建筑内在属性相一致，合理有效，我们倾向于在一个项目里的材料类型越少越好。
The skins help architecture in a holistic way and contribute to its expression. The temperament of purity that we are chasing for calls a high requirement on skins. As for the architecture, the skin is the part that has little influence on its functions and it should necessarily in accordance with the internal property. We tend to choose the simple and efficient materials. The less materials we use, the better it would be.
▼南京万景园小教堂，表皮纯净统一，与建筑内在相协调（点击这里查看更多）Nanjing Wanjing Garden Chapel with pure skin made of wooden louvers, corresponded with the (click HERE to view more)
▼上饶市城市规划展示馆，博物馆和档案馆，木格栅表皮形成纯净统一的效果。Shangrao Urban Planning Exhibition Pavilion, Museum and Archive, pure and united appearance made of wooden louvers
11.
从业多年你一直执着地创作。建筑最让你兴奋的点是什么？ You devoted to architecture design for years, so what makes you excited in this field?
建筑师这一工作的魅力在于不知道明天会碰到什么项目遇到怎样的挑战，永远面对总是在解决不同的问题，每一天都是新的开始。
You will never know what comes on the other day, and you have to always facing different challenges and always on the way to solve them. Each of your days is different.
12.
通常您的一天是怎样度过的？ How do you usually spend your day?
九多钟到办公室，一直工作到晚上八点左右离开，晚上一般不加班，中午一般不吃饭，也没什么业余爱好。有接近一半时间出差旅行，考察项目和汇报交流。
I arrive at my office around 9 a.m. and would work until 8 p.m. in the evening without lunch. I don’t usually work late at night. I don’t have much interest. Half of my time is on business trips, site trips and project presentations.
13.
喜欢什么样的甲方？ Which kind of the clients is your favorite?
评价甲方的标准有三点：价值观、品位、执行力。三观正，品位高，执行力强，一定是最好的甲方。好的业主不会因为短期的商业目的而放弃长期的可持续性发展目标。
Three points as evaluation for clients: value, taste, and execution. The kind with right value, good taste, and efficient execution is the good client. Good client should devote to the sustainable projects instead of the short-term interest.
14.
建筑对您来讲意味着什么？ What do architecture mean to you?
建筑是情人，有持久魅力，激发生命能量。
Architecture is my lover. It is charming and it stimulate my power of life.
▼张雷联合建筑事务所二层主要办公空间（点击这里查看更多）main working space on the 2nd floor of the office (click HERE to view more)
▼事务所一层材料库，material library on the 1st floor
▼事务所一层模型间，model workshop on the 1st floor
▼事务所三楼会议室，conference room on the 3rd floor
▼张雷老师在指导设计工作，Zhang Lei supervising design works
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