gooood Interview NO.16 – Hiroshi Nakamura
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Dec 16, 2022 10:18 AM
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gooood团队采访世界各地的有趣创意人，欢迎您的推荐和建议。 第16期为您奉上的是 Hiroshi Nakamura & NAP 的中村拓志。更多关于他： Hiroshi Nakamura on gooood 。 gooood team interviews creative from all over the world. Your recommendations and suggestions are welcomed! gooood Interview NO.16 introduces Nakamura Hiroshi | Hiroshi Nakamura & NAP . More: Hiroshi Nakamura on gooood 。
出品人：向玲 Producer: Xiang Ling 合作编辑：胡佳林Coorporate Editor: Hu Jialin 编辑团队：陈诺嘉，杨子豪，王丛月，鹿璐， 苏昕，刘秘 Editor:Chen Nuojia, Yang Zihao, Wang Congyue, Lu Lu, Su Xin, Liu Mi
Interviewgooood x Hiroshi Nakamura
Click HERE to view the Japanese version of the interview. 日本語のインタビューはこちらへ
1. 中村先生最近的作品大多在郊外或者森林里，您是特意选择这样的基地的吗？您在接受设计委托的时候最关注的部分是什么？We realize that most of your latest works are projected (located) in suburban or in forest. Do you choose the site on purpose? And which part of the design you considered the most when you accept a commission?
我确实会优先选择位于优美自然环境中的项目。我希望设计能够充分展现基地魅力的建筑，进而让人们意识到自然延续的重要性，这也是我作为建筑师的社会使命。业主在看到我设计的和自然有良好关系的建筑作品后将自己的项目委托给我，这也导致了我现在的项目大多是在自然环境丰富的基地中。
I prefer project in natural environment to those are not. It is my social responsibility to make people aware of the importance of sustainability by creating buildings that fully express the beauty of the natural sites. Most of my clients came to me because they had seen my previous projects that interact well with the surrounding landscapes. As a result, most of my new projects are in sites of abundant nature contexts.
▼ 中村先生在优美自然环境中的项目案例部分摘选，selected projects with abundant nature contexts
2. 您在2007出版了《恋爱中的建筑》一书，其中写到了“探寻人与建筑新的关系”。在十年后的今天，您对于“人与建筑新的关系”有什么新的想法可以和我们分享吗？In the book Architecture in Love published in 2007, you mentioned that “explore a new relationship of human and architecture”. Since then, ten years have past. Is there any new idea about this issue that you can share with us?
这是一个很普遍的问题，十年来我一直在对其进行思考，而我的想法也在不断地进化。若要说和十年前比有何不同的话，我现在会更多地去考虑建筑中的动态关系。即是说，我不是以人们在建筑中保持坐着或站立的静止状态来进行设计。人们会摇头，会张望，会坐着，还会站起来四处走动，而我则会在这些运动之中思考人和建筑的关系。在我的作品里，Ribbon Chapel很好地反映了建筑的动态关系。在这个项目中，人们扶级而上，分分合合，最后结为一体，在运动的过程中不断加深对建筑的体验。峡山礼拜堂的设计也体现了这种动态的关系。建筑的地面微微倾斜，比祭坛低一厘米，当人们从椅子上站起来走向祭坛的时候会感受到这一微小的坡度，从而引起心情的微妙变化。在走动的过程中，他们会觉得自己的心被森林吸引，仿佛要与长眠于地下之人再次相会。
This is a ubiquitous issue. I have been thinking about this issue in the past 10 years, and of course this will continue in my further study and keep progressing. Comparing with what I understood a decade ago, I focus more on the dynamic relationships inside architecture. People are not static in a building. They would shake their heads, look around, sit or step around. They would experience the architecture in a constant stage of moving. Thus I would start my design with the dynamic relationship between human and architecture in my mind. Ribbon Chapel is a good example of that. When people enter the architecture, they would keep going up, repetitively separating and gathering, and finally meeting each other on the top of the chapel. This dynamic process helps them better experience the architecture. Sayama Lakeside Cemetery Community Hall expresses this relationship as well. The sloping ground of chapel is 1 cm lower than the altar. When people stand up and move towards the altar, they would experience this subtle sloping, which would cause changes in their mood. the visitors emerge the reminiscence of the person buried in this place, going down to meet them for one more time as they are attracted by the forest.
▼丝带教堂 – 人们沿着螺旋不断向上，在运动的过程中加深对建筑的体验（点击这里看更多）Ribbon Chapel – people walk up through the spiral, enhancing the experience in constant stage of moving (Click HERE to see more)
▼峡山礼拜堂 – 地面略微倾斜，给人一种被吸入森林的感觉（点击这里看更多）Sayama Forest Chapel – the sloping floor gives a sense of being absorbed into the forest (Click HERE to see more)
3. 将情感植入建筑设计需要经历一个细腻的过程。可以向我们介绍一下您做设计的流程吗？设计中最让您感到兴奋的地方是哪里？Implanting emotions in architectural designs needs experiencing a delicate process. Could you please introduce some of your design processes, and sharing some exciting parts with us.
以Ribbon Chapel 为例，我在设计的时候会想：今天，一对新人将在这里结成伴侣，合而为一，如何让他们在建筑里更加强烈地感受到这种心情的变化呢？为了回应这一想法，比起设计一座外形独特的建筑，我更加关注建筑使用者的感情。作为主角的新郎和新娘，支撑两人一路走来的家人和朋友，我希望强化他们在婚礼中的体验，让他们产生兴奋、感动等各种各样强烈的情感，这才是设计的目的所在。因此，我尝试去模拟两人的心情。在和员工开会的时候，我们还特意讨论了走在红毯上是什么感觉，会产生怎样的心情变化等等。总的来说，感情的设计是从对行为举止的设计开始的。一般来说，人们认为自己的行动是由于某种感情造成的，但事实有时是相反的，人会在行动中产生情感。医学上也会用行动疗法治疗心理疾病。
Take Ribbon Chapel as example, when I was designing I would imagine the emotional experience of the new couple. I would ask myself that what would they feel as they becoming husband and wife in this special day and how could the architectural space arouse and strengthen their feelings for this sacred moment. In response to this thought, I was more focus on the users’ emotions, rather than simply designing a unique architecture. I want to enhance all the users’ experience in the wedding ceremony including the grooms and brides as the star and their parents and friends whom have been supporting them all the time. The goal of the design is to put strong emotions in the people’s heart, making them excited and touched. Thus I tried to simulate the feelings of the couple and even discussed what emotional changes would occur when they were walking through the virgin road during staff meetings. I implant emotions by designing people’s behaviors in the architecture. Generally, people would take action when they feel something. But sometimes it works in the opposite way. Emotion could be generated by actions, which is why doctors would use behavior therapy to treat some mental diseases.
▼Ribbon Chapel – 新娘在被自然环绕的礼堂之中。Ribbon Chapel – the bride in the wedding hall surrounded by the nature
▼Ribbon Chapel – 新郎新娘扶级而上，最后相会于建筑顶部。Ribbon Chapel – the new couple keep walking upward and meet on the top
4. 刚刚在说的Ribbon Chapel是一座只有80平米的小建筑。您是否认为感情只能体现在小尺度的建筑空间中呢？对于大型建筑来说要如何表现感情呢？Ribbon Chapel is a small architecture with only 80 sqm area. Do you think that emotions could only be revealed in small-scaled architectural spaces? How can emotions be expressed architecturally in larger scales.
我认为大空间拥有只有在大空间中才能体会到的感觉。无论是小尺度还是大型建筑我都想要尝试。不过，如果要让人们体会到更细腻、亲密的情感，沉浸在建筑之中，那么就需要控制相关物件的尺度，让人们可以在触手可及的距离中与其接触，这一点在设计中极为重要。如果被人反复碰触，那么经年累月，人的情感便会移入其中。这一点在巨大的空间之中应该也可以做到，因为多个小空间聚集在一起就可以形成一个大空间。因此，我希望创造一个既具有大空间独有的压迫感，又不会让人觉得冰冷、焦虑、无所适从的亲密的大尺度建筑。
There are emotions that only large-scaled architecture could express and I would like to design projects of different scales. However, if we want to make people immerse in a building or have a delicate and intimate experience, it is important to control the size of the related objects to ensure that they are close enough for people to touch. This is one of the most important factors in designing architecture in a phenomenological approach. After years of interaction, emotions could be transmitted into architectures. Even in a large-scaled architecture, this contact is not impossible to create. For example, we could build up a big space by getting small ones together. In one word, I want to create an intimate large-scaled architecture, which could give people a specific sense of force without making them feel anxious or alienated.
▼Roku 美术馆 – 小尺度中人与建筑的亲密关系（点击这里看更多）Roku Museum – the intimate relationship between people and architecture in small scales (Click HERE to see more)
5. 中村先生的作品里对于材料的表现十分新颖有趣。比如东急广场中万花筒一般的入口通道，以及在广岛住宅中使用的硼硅酸盐玻璃等。您在材料方面都做了哪些努力呢？是否可以分享一些您开发和使用材料的经验呢？The use of materials is very innovative and interesting in your design, like the kaleidoscope entrance tube at Tokyu Plaza and the Borosilicate glass in the Hiroshima House. What efforts have you put in experimenting materiality? Could you share some experiences in developing and using materials?
我认为建筑是将人包裹起来的东西。建筑与使用者身体的关系，触摸的质感，乃至于同自然现象的对话都是我在设计中关注的重点。拿玻璃来说，不同的光通过玻璃折射会产生不同的效果，并且随着时间的变化形成迥异的光影。在我的事务所中有一扇窗是由各种玻璃样本材料组合制作而成的，在下午三点左右，阳光会透过这面玻璃在地上形成丰富的光影。虽然我为了达到这样的效果而进行了设计和计算，但最终的成果往往会超乎我的想象，这也是设计的乐趣所在。这样的玻璃是没法在市场上直接买到的，需要在设计后与制造商探讨、合作才能制作出来。对于现代建筑来说，常用的方法是在产品目录中选择既成的工业制品组合使用。基本上来说我不会否定这种作法，但是如果想要建造让人感动的空间，我认为使用专门为那个人制作的材料还是十分重要的。
To me, an architecture is an enclosing environment for people. I pay much attention in its tactile impression, its relationships with users and even the communication with the Nature during my design. Let’s take glass as an instance. This material could reflect and refract light to create various effects, showing different appearances according to the atmospheric changes. There’s a patchwork window composed by glass samples made of different materials in my office. When it is around three o’clock in the afternoon, various shadows would be casted on the floor by the sunlight penetrated through the window. I make the design and calculation on purpose, but the result is always far beyond my expectation, which is the interesting point. We discussed and collaborated with our manufacturers to develop this unique glass, which could not be found in any market. For modern architecture, it is common to choose and use off-the shelf industrial products from the existing catalog. Although I won’t disagree with using this method,, I believe that if you want to create an atmospheric space, it is necessary to develop a special material for the specific people who go there.
▼东急Plaza表参道原宿 – 万花筒一般的入口通道。Tokyu Plaza Omotesando Harajuku – the kaleidoscope entrance tube
▼广岛玻璃住宅 – 玻璃砖形成独特的光影（点击这里看更多）Optical Glass House – the glass bricks create impressive light shadows (Click HERE to see more)
▼东京L’ECRIN箱包店 – 定制的玻璃立面带来丰富的光影效果（点击这里看更多）Glass Jewelry Box – custom made glass facade provides various light effects (Click HERE to see more)
▼住宅C – 特意用当地土壤建造的房屋。House C – a building specifically made of local soil
6. Ribbon Chapel的概念十分浪漫，并且通过特殊的构造呈现在了人们面前。在设计的过程中，概念和构造是如何结合在一起的呢？The conception of the Ribbon Chapel is very romantic and it is completed through unique tectonics. How did concepts and tectonics collaborate during the design?
对于Ribbon Chapel来说，构造的难点在螺旋的结构上。其实当时我并不确定是否可以造出这样的建筑，只是觉得如果能做一栋这样的建筑就太有意思了，于是制作了一个模型，而模型竟然立住了。我就想既然模型可以立起来的话那建筑应该也有办法成立吧，便去请教之前合作过的在ARUP工作的柴田先生，结果他在看到设计后马上表示可以建造。只要在四个地方对螺旋进行了连接，就可以保证了结构的稳固。尽管一根螺旋摇摇晃晃很不稳定，但两根结合在一起就不一样了，同时还可以形成环箍效应，防止结构向外散开。向上和向下的螺旋以X形交结在一起，形成了类似支架的结构，可以吸收水平方向的作用力。柴田先生在我设计的形态中找到了构造的意义，并通过实际的结构将其变成了现实。在这个过程中，他会向我提出类似“这里要稍微收拢一些”“这里构造上很坚固再扩大一点也没问题”之类的建议，但是设计的概念并没有改变，只是在弯曲的方式、幅度和位置等方面进行了调整。我们就是通过这种合作方式实现了这个设计。至于在设计的哪个阶段让构造介入，虽然根据情况会有所不同，但先做设计，再做构造往往不会得到一个好的结果。我的设计中有很多像Ribbon Chapel这样，如果不把设计和构造结合起来就无法实现，在初期就开始和构造人员合作的项目。在设计中对形态和构造两方面同时进行考量是最为重要的。
The structure of the spiral is the main difficulty of the Ribbon Chapel’s construction. To be honesty, I have no idea if such a building could be realized at the beginning of the design. With a playful thought of creating a cool architecture, I made a model and unexpectedly found that it could stand. Then I started to think of the possibility of making the design real and went to Mr. Shibata in Arup, who I had collaborated with before, for help. To my surprise, as soon as he saw my design, he asserted that it could be done. He connected the spirals in only four points to ensure the steadiness of the structure. One strip of spiral is unstable, but if we combine the two together, things become different. Hoop effect was used to prevent the spirals from breaking up. The upward and downward spirals combined and formed an X shape, which could act as a brace to absorb the horizontal forces. Mr. Shibata found the constructional value in my design and realized it through practical structure. During this process, he had come up with advisements like shrinking the shape or expanding the curve at particular points due to construction reason. But they were only small changes in way of curving, span and position. The initial concept of the design was maintained and we collaborated to complete the project accordingly. Of course it varies from project to project on when to start working with the structure team. I have done many projects like the Ribbon Chapel project, which design could not be developed without the help of construction and the collaboration with the structure team started in a very early stage. I don’t think it is a good way to consider structure after finishing the design. The most important thing in design is to simultaneously keep concept and construction in mind.
▼由两条螺旋组成的Ribbon Chapel。Ribbon Chapel with the structure of two spirals
▼Ribbon Chapel结构示意。Structure of Ribbon Chapel
7. 中村先生的建筑在世界中广受好评，近年您在日本以外的业务也在不断增长。设计外国项目和设计日本项目最不一样的地方是哪里？有没有什么有趣的经历可以和我们分享？Your projects are not only popular in Japan but also around the world, and you have been working on many projects overseas. What is the biggest difference in dealing with Japanese and foreign projects? Do you have anything interesting to share with us?
与其说有什么不同，不如说发现世界中竟然有这么多和我有着相同理念的人这点让我觉得最为有趣。即使文化，生长环境，气候和自然条件都不一样，但是我们都认为现代社会中存在问题，并且对于解决这些问题抱有相同的理想，这种情况比我在日本时遇到的还要多。在日本做设计的话，会受到经济等各种条框的限制，在不断的妥协中前进。但是那些从国外给我委托的业主，本身就有着对理想强烈的追求，或者说正是因为有这样的追求，才会特意找到我来做设计。现在我觉得最有趣的是一个台湾的项目，它是一个度假酒店和体验教室的结合体，旨在重新构筑人和自然的关系。我和业主相互来往了很多次，对设计进行了大量的讨论。我们都希望建造一个可以让人们持续不断地生活下去的建筑。或许正因为在现在这样一个繁忙的时代，所以大家会追求那种宁静的感觉吧。
What interests me the most is not the differences, but to find that there are so many people having the same ideas with me in the world. Though we are different in culture background and living in different environment and climate zones, we all think that there’s something wrong with the modern society and aim to solve the problems with similar thoughts in our minds. When working on projects in Japan, there are always so many constraints that I have to approach my goal by making compromises. It is quite different when dealing with oversea projects. The clients of these projects always have strong desire to pursue their ideals and this is why they come for me from miles away. Recently, I am working on an interesting project in Taiwan, which is a combination of resort hotel and experience studios, aiming to rebuild the relationship between human and the Nature. I have met the client for many times and talked a lot about the design. We talked a lot about ideas and the relationship between human and the Nature. We have the same dream of creating a sustainable architecture that people could live in for generations. Perhaps it is the busy era that makes us thirsty for a peaceful life.
▼东京集合住宅 – 生活与自然相和谐。Dancing Trees, Singing Birds – approach harmony between living and nature
▼东京集合住宅 – 窗户避开树枝设计。Dancing Trees, Singing Birds – the windows are designed according to the trees
8. 您最想挑战的项目类型是什么？为什么？ Which kind of project you want to challenge the most? Why?
我最想做的项目是美术馆。我虽然做过一些小美术馆，但还是想要设计一个以画为主角的空间，人们不仅仅是看，还可以在观看作品或庭院等空间的时候进行冥想和自省。另外我想做的就是禅寺这样的祈祷空间。我希望设计创造一个可以使心情变得更为平和谦逊，让人们更加深入地去思考自己的理想的空间，或是如狭山礼拜堂和安息所那样引人沉思的场所。
What I want to design the most is art gallery projects. Though I have designed some small galleries before, I still want to make one with the paintings as leading character. In this gallery, people could not only look, but also do meditation and introspection as visiting the works and spaces. I also want to design religious architectures like Zen temples. I want to create a peaceful place for people to think1, like Sayama Lakeside Cemetery Community Hall. People would become calm and modest so that they will carefully think about their dreams.
▼Roku 美术馆 – 自然之中宁静的思考场所（点击这里看更多）Roku Museum – a peaceful place for meditation in the nature (Click HERE to see more)
▼峡山安息所 – 宁静的祈祷场所（点击这里看更多）Sayama Lakeside Cemetery Community Hall – a tranquil place for pray (Click HERE to see more)
▼峡山礼拜堂 – 宁静的祈祷场所（点击这里看更多）Sayama Forest Chapel – a tranquil place for pray (Click HERE to see more)
摄影：Nacasa & Partners Inc. （未经允许不得擅自使用、转载、以及二次加工照片）Photo Credits: Nacasa & Partners Inc.(any use of the photos without permission is not allowed)写真クレジット：株式会社ナカサアンドパートナー
More: Hiroshi Nakamura & NAP ，更多关于他：Hiroshi Nakamura on gooood。