gooood Interview NO.6 – Rafael Moneo

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Dec 16, 2022 10:18 AM

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gooood团队采访世界各地的有趣创意人，欢迎您的推荐和建议。第6期为您奉上的是Rafael Moneo。 gooood team interviews creative from all over the world. Your recommendations and suggestions are welcomed! gooood Interview NO.6 introduces Rafael Moneo.

出品人 Producer：向玲 XiangLing王耀华Yaohua Wang

▼点击下方观看视频，click to watch the video

Interviewgooood x Rafael Moneo

对您来说，什么是建筑呢？For you what is architecture?

我认为这是最难回答的一类问题。建筑是什么，（也许你是希望了解）我如何去定义它。（对我来说）建筑可能表述了我们生活的这个世界背后那些有序或者混乱的结构。或者说你想问的是一个专业的定义。我想说在我们身边的这个人造大世界里，建筑师所做的事就是试图创造条件来使选择生活方式成为可能。因此，此时此刻谈论建筑要么是意味着去讨论建筑背后的本质是隐喻着结构秩序，要么就是仅仅在谈论这个专业本身，所以我刚刚才说回答这种很笼统的问题不是件简单的事。

I think that those questions are the worst to be answered. Architecture is how would I define what architecture is. Architecture is perhaps is something that speaks about the structure and the order or the chaos which is behind the world we live on. And either you want some source about the architecture coming from what the profession is. I would say in this artificial world that is the big world around us is what architects have done and what architects have done is try to establish the conditions to handle and to manage and to make life possible in the world; Therefore, in this moment to speak about architecture means to speak either of the substantive that is behind architecture, that speaks about these metaphors, that implies that the entire notion of structure and order behind whatever kind of being or just the profession. Therefore is difficult in these very much general questions to be answered easily.

实际上接下来的问题会更有针对性。下面我想问一些有关您的经典建筑——穆尔西亚市政中心的问题。这个建筑完工于1998年，距今已经15年了，如果现在的您回头看这个作品，您有什么新的感受吗？有没有什么是您想完善的呢？And, actually the next couple of questions will be more specific. It’s going to be more about one of your classic projects, which is the city hall of Murcia. So, it’s completed in 1998, now it’s been 15 years. Now that you look back to this project, what do you feel? Is there anything you want to change?

我应该会让它保持现状。那些“砖块”那样摆放就很好。它应该是1998年完工的，我不是太记得了。不过它是那之前四五年设计的。这说明这个项目讲述了如何在一个已经非常完善的城市背景下设计建筑。在这种情况下，建筑不仅仅是围合空间，而且更需要和（它在广场对面的）大教堂建立对应关系。我想教堂就像一个抽象的舞台。我想和这个舞台对应的立面形式编排可以给在这个广场上的人一种相似空间的记忆。

我还有别的方面的考量，像是否用一些优于玻璃的反光材料还是只是用石头？如何让它和它周围的现存建筑更契合？然后我们需要证实我们选择的是一个集合这些所有线索的最优解。这个广场是这个城市的第一个城市公共空间。同时因为大教堂等周边的著名景点而占重要地位，随着市长也出现在这个“公共舞台”，我想，我或多或少都会维持原有的设计。

Probably, I would leave it the way it is. The brick is earlier like that, you’re probably you are right it finished in 1998. I didn’t remember now, but it was designed 4 or 5 years earlier, and that means that it’s a project which speaks out this problem of making buildings in very well-defined urban atmospheres and urban cities. In this case, the building encloses the space, but mostly ties to establish the dual counter point with the cathedral. I thought that the cathedral was something that gives tableaux that was the structure as the tableaux used to be. And I thought that perhaps that something like much more abstract with tableaux out of old iconography that the cathedral had that still would be able to give to the rise and to the sense of whoever was in the plaza the sense that belonging to the same space and that was it.

Then, there were other considerations I like whether don’t put there any reflective material better than glass is was just stone, better than the huge volume it would be better to match those that existed close to it and then we needed to provide the right alignments all these things seems to be that are there also and lately and this platform is the first urban space in the city. And then the plaza was completely dominated by the charge either the ivy shop, the cardinal or the cathedral all these this is more people’s houses that were in one of the sites. I thought that along with the mayor to be also present in this space public justifies the balcony that the tableaux have. Therefore, I would say that more or less, I will be back into the same features the design like that has.

该项目建成后，它的主立面成为很多人讨论的焦点。我感觉某种程度上说，市政中心的主立面显得更自由而独立于这个设计的主旋律。为什么要这样设计使它独立于主体存在呢？After the project finished, the facade become an important topic, lots of people discussing about it. I feel like the facade has really a degree of freedom from the main volume. It’s detached and also independent. So, why did you make it independent in the first place?

嗯，因为我认为，这个立面更多是属于它面前的那个广场而不是建筑本身。因此，这个立面表现出一种希望参与到整个广场空间的态度。当然，由于这个主立面遮挡了这个建筑的实际围合立面，而使广场上的人搞不清它究竟扮演了一个什么样的角色，不过，我还是认为分离这个立面是应该的。

Well because I think that the facade belong more to the plaza than to the building itself. And, therefore, the facade shows the role that it wants to play in the entire space of the plaza. Had the facade to contrive what was happening behind in the actual enclosure of the building it would have perhaps limited the people whoever of was the plaza of the actual role that the facade was playing. And, therefore, detached the facade still follow to me although still I think is what ought to be done.

下面这个问题还是关于这个立面的设计的。主流解读的话它是一个经典的三段式设计，当然还有很多别的解读。然而，在你的讲述你的21件作品的书中，你说道这个立面的设计完全是随机的，这与人们的旧解读大相径庭。所以我很好奇，这个立面是如何回应历史，你又是如何确定它的图案格局的？And also about the design of the facade, so people were reading it as a 3 part of the classical order, and there are lots of other readings about the facade. And, in your book of the remark of 21 works, you said the facade was random, which is very different from people’s old reading. So, I’m wondering, how did this kind of facade respond to the history? How did you determine the pattern?

在某种程度上来说，我不认为（主流解读）是指这个自成一体的立面，因为它几乎是完全独立存在的，只是因为那个巨大的阳台所以我们设计了一个大洞在那上面，我认为立面上的图案才是重点。而这个纹理对我来说更是水平方向和垂直方向的秩序的表达。支撑着立柱的水平混凝土块表达的是这个舞台一样的立面与背后的建筑的自然秩序的关系。

然而谈到竖向元素的话，它也可以更自由活泼，假如你希望它更抒情化，不过，立面的设计强调了一个问题，就是“数量”和“节奏”的关系，这已经在建筑界被探讨过许多许多次，音乐有的节奏关系在立面设计中显然也是存在的。壁柱的线脚也是非常重要的，就像Scott Cohen昨天在他的演讲中提到的，它们是水平线条和垂直线条的重要交点。

In a way, I don’t think that because of the autonomy of the facade. Because the facade works almost independently, but with the big balcony that makes the whole there, I guess the texture was what matters. And this texture seems to me was much more established by the vertical and horizontal order. The relationship between the horizontal pieces of concrete holding the columns are those who are actually introduce the natural order of tableaux facade that is related with the building that are following the status of the building behind.

And yet, I guess that it was much more lively and free and if you wanted even lyrical, the facade emphasized an issue that architecture has explored many many times that is the fact of numbers and rhythms and those rhythms and relationship with music that obviously the facade has, is asking more for these not structure it vertical greed. The corners of the pilasters are so important that is just creating this intersection between and verticality and horizontality that yesterday Scott Cohen was talking about in his lecture.

嗯，在你的回答中提到了“数量”和“节奏”，能不能请你更加具体的解释一下是如何去决定这个设计的呢？So, you mentioned about number and rhythm. Could you be more specific, how did you determine that?

对于这个问题我无法给予一个确切的答案，需要多少立柱“数量”大约是和它们承载的压力有关，但建筑设计本身还牵涉到直觉和巧合。我曾经在其他的作品中使用过斐波那契数列，但这个立面并非如此，它更是一种视觉上的控制。我们做了大量的模型，然后我一眼就相中了现在这个，每两个竖柱的距离，和竖向线条是否被打断的状况都恰到好处。虽说最后的完工效果略有不同，但用这种方式来判断整体的立面设计显然是非常直观的。

I don’t think that I can to answer you very frankly. Probably, numbers are related to say to the pressure of having a specific number of columns and then buildings are much more established by chance. In a way, I have used to do in other projects; I have used the Fibonacci Sequence. It isn’t the case in this facade. It is much more visually controlled. I went through making many models, and the moment I indeed liked it, the true proximity between two columns and how the vertical alignment defined for them was broken or not. It was much more visually intuition on the overall facade was actually is different than what the facade ended up being.

有人将你的立面设计与SANAA在德国的Zollverein设计管理学院的立面设计相比较（Zollverein Design School 2006），对此你有什么看法。Someone compared Sana’s building in Germany, the one with the box, the facade, with your facade. How will you respond to that?

我很了解它们的共通之处，我不能说是一种直接的联系，但某种意义上说，这种重复的元素，有跳动感的画面，是两个项目都做的很成功的。所以尽管我过去从未听过这种比较，但我并不认为这种比较是不合适的。

I understand the community. I wouldn’t think that they say a direct connection, and yet, the sense that the feeling of these I wouldn’t say just pictures, the sense that you can’t prevent falling into repetition by just making the elements to dance in the plane. That is what both projects have been done. I have never heard about that till now. I wouldn’t’ say that is out of place that the suggestion that you made.

这个建筑的入口立柱也很有意思，因为在入口之外，你使用的是方柱，而进入入口之后，换成了圆柱，那么这个设计有什么隐含的意义吗？The column at the entrance is very interesting because the outside is a rectangular column and when you enter the entrance it becomes a circle column. So, what’s the idea behind that?

我想我之前的回答已经提到过一些了，我想这个建筑参与到广场中来，但我并不希望它相对于大教堂和宫殿是一个过于强大的存在。这样的话最好是给这个建筑设计一个侧入口，而这个侧入口并不是仅仅作为一个元素存在，或是为了让建筑有个通向广场的门而作为这个立面的一个补救措施。相反，通过这个侧入口的不同设计，就像我在建筑和整个城市肌理之间建立的关系一样，我不断强调了这个垂直立面的完整性和独立性。某种程度上来说，它是在解决一种城市问题。对我来说，这个入口元素的复杂性，增加了街道和广场的活跃度。

I think I have said something about that. I wanted the building to be in the plaza, but I didn’t want the building to have such a powerful presence in the plaza as had both the cardinal palace and the cathedral. If that was going to happen better to give a side entrance to the building. By giving a side entrance to the building you are reducing then you are not just entering an element that is obviously had the building has a gate on the plaza, the door will taken some mandatory relief in the entire facade. Instead, by giving the door a design, I keep the autonomy and the integrity of the vertical plane of the facade as well as I established the contact between the building of the entire urban fabric. In a way it is addressing the city instead of addressing the plaza. It seems to me that it enters the element of complexity and that makes both the street and plaza more lively.

您除了是一位伟大的建筑师，同时也是一位著名的教育家，您认为建筑学生在建筑学校能获得的最重要的东西是什么？Besides a great architect, you are a great educator, what is the most important thing for students to learn when they are in architecture school?

我建议建筑学生去做的就是带着批判的眼光去看建筑，去探索，去重塑已有的经验，如此一来就能不断的学到新东西。事实上，鉴于我受的教育和实践经验，每当我这么做的时候，我都站在设计师的角度去想象“我在做一个怎样的设计”。作为一个有经验的专业建筑师，我们其实是在设计一种新的体验。因此在我看来，这仍然是一种很好的学习方式。有一天我在纽约现代艺术博物馆参观Brooks的展览时，我应证了我的想法。我很惊讶的发现他在几乎没有任何经验的情况下，仅仅是对希腊罗马庙宇，托斯卡纳墓葬，中世纪修道院进行了非常仔细的浸淫和学习之后，就设计出了19世纪最好的历史建筑之一，巴黎圣吉纳维夫图书馆。

回到你的问题上来，我认为要成为一名好的建筑师需要在专业知识之外参加更多的实践，这让你会对你所作的一切越来越享受。另外就是应该分享各种实践经验，更多的反思建筑师于社会和世界的责任。

Well, what I would recommend the most to the students will be to look at buildings so acutely. I will be say critically, to explore and to remake the experience of building the building by looking at it and so if you do that you are able to learn continuously. Indeed when I go whenever I immediately, because of my education and my practice, I start to put myself in the shoes of the architect. And it seems to me it’s a way of remaking by thinking beside the architect what the building is you are making. You are making an experience you didn’t have before and that experience this is a profession that has to do with experience as well. Therefore, that seems to me that is still a good way of learning. Just standing in this concept, this idea of learning from the buildings I saw the other day for my second day, the Brooks exhibition in the Museum of Modern Art in New York. And then, I was surprised seeing how he goes directly from having rendered all those buildings from the mostly Greek Roman Temples, Tuscan tombs, Medieval cloisters, that the end just by throwing so carefully being impregnated and learning from them he was able to go almost directly without any more experience in producing one of the nicest buildings in 19th century architectural history that is the library of St. Genevieve in Paris.

Obviously, and coming back with your question, I see that the way I believe is better to be an architect is when you are adding to the practice of your profession. These intellectual commitments that is the way of enjoying more and more of what you do. You should oversee what is just the shared practice of the profession and trying to give much more spicy and much more lively content that is provided by just thinking the role your work plays in the world of architecture.

做为一名建筑师您有着让人惊叹的职业生涯，我想您的职业生涯中是否也经历过一些艰难的时期，您又是如何克服这些困难的呢？You had an amazing career as an architect. I’m just wondering if there were tough times in your career, and how did you overcome those tough times.

对于我们西班牙建筑师来说，危机感是一个严肃的话题，你知道，我们国家在变成今天这样的自由民主专政国家之前经历了一段困难时期。为了度过这个社会的困难时期，建筑师起了非常重要的作用。同时，建筑师也在80-90年代社会演变的过程中去享受创造许多的不同风格的建筑。建筑师做了许多的社会住房，学校，医院，博物馆，图书馆，火车站。建筑师是非常享受这个蓬勃发展的实践热潮的。尽管也有与别的国家接触，但我的项目大多数在西班牙，我们的实践也是被大家认可的。不过现在的年轻建筑师就受到了越来越多的限制，许多大型公共项目已经被停止，虽然我知道建筑师仍旧有机会获得这样的委托，但是鉴于这种获得太容易，设计的深度和强度都不够。其实有时候花点时间和耐心去实践并不是一件坏事。对于许多年轻建筑师来说，现在是出国历练的好时候，也许他们在有了经验之后最终会回到他们的祖国来。

Well, for us, architects in Spain, the crisis is a serious event because you know our country move from great hard time of dictatorship into free world democracy. The role of the architects was very important in helping the society to move on.And architects have enjoyed in Spain in the 80s and 90s making so many different buildings for an evolved society. So, architects did a lot of social housing, but also schools and hospitals, museums, libraries, railway stations – the country moved on. We see architects boomed, and enjoyed having a flourishing practice. In spite of being in contact with other countries, my practice mostly has been based in Spain. Our practice has also assented, and we need to think about much more restricted problems. Many large project and much more important public projects have been stopped, but I think that there is still room for architects to try to transfer their commission they have now days the intensity and the depth that perhaps was started to be lost in the these discipline – were used to get things too easily and to have time for patience will not be bad. For many young architects probably is going to be time for foreign experience and perhaps they will come back to their country after having learned or having had the opportunity to know how life and practice works.

10.

（目前）中国市场非常庞大，许多建筑师来到中国来实践他们的作品，（您有什么看法）？Chinese market is quite big. Lot of architects go to China to practice in China.

不好意思，我不太了解中国，实际上是一点都不了解。我曾去过3次日本，还有一次到了香港，我挺喜欢香港的，它的许多方面对我来说都能说的上是“最好的城市”之一。包括它美妙的地理位置，它蕴含的能量，还有它美丽的现代建筑群。香港尽一切可能发掘场地的可利用价值去给市民提供好的居住环境，而不是像许多其他地方一样做一些“传达象征性”意义的设计。

说到这个，在中国我唯一有深刻印象的就是四川，虽然我也知道把两个完全没什么共同性的地方拿来相提并论十分苍白，但不知何故，很明显的，你能意识到它正在试图竞争。当然我能想到不仅仅是四川，但是四川代表了这个区域的地利条件，人口甚至南北差异。当然我希望我有一天还可以了解北京，上海，广东。而谈到西方建筑在中国的存在，我不知道中国是否接受了西方模式，还是仅仅只是在购买西方的设计。但是对我来说，你们国家有这么悠久强大的文化，你们不应该如此直接的借用西方的设计。我看到很多建筑师仅仅把中国当成一片试验田，西方设计师缺少和人和场地的接触，而不分青红皂白的就在那里做自认为最明智的决定。我认为去年的普利策奖得主王澍，先别管他的作品，就政治上来说，对中国很重要。

Unfortunately, I don’t know China so well. Actually, I don’t know it at all. I have travelled 3 times to Japan, and I travelled once to Hong Kong. I like Hong Kong a lot. It seems to me one of the nicest cities I know for many things – for the wonderful geographical conditions it’s seated on, but also by the energy and by the beauty with which Hong Kong has answered to contemporary architecture. Whoever comes from a country where let’s say tower was still conveying symbolic content and instead Hong Kong you see tower was trying to provide dwelling people and then losing all these let’s say overdone meaning and instead going back to using for intensively the site. That was for me why that was an unforgettable experience.

Sichuan that is the only thing that I know from China. I wouldn’t say is so good. I think that it is very pale trying to replicate what Hong Kong is in a rather let’s say magical condition and it hasn’t neither for the urban setting not because of the work, it is born with the liveliness it does it is much more bureaucratic, officials, and somehow you realize that they are trying to compete, and when you see that obviously, but I imagine that it doesn’t Sichuan at all. Sino representing the past geographical conditions in the regions, populations, even racial differences among North and South. And, I indeed it is a duty to know Beijing, Shanghai, Canton and I hope I will do it one day. Talking about the presence of Western architecture in China. I wonder what China is buying or accepting what the Western patterns so a bit too much and critically. You have such a powerful culture, I wouldn’t say beautiful, but powerful culture. Western culture I think that you should or you have the roots and the strength for doing something that shouldn’t be so directly borrowed. I see a lot of architects making China let’s say a marketplace for their practices but no more than that. I guess that to architecture is used to have born just in a strict contact with both the people of the land where they have been raised. I think that something that is missing in China. I wonder what we Westerners are just making the wisest thing when working there indiscriminately. I think that the Pritzker prize winner last year, Wang Shu, regardless of the judgment of his work, politically speaking, or say something how China ought to look on itself. Is it a call to your attention how much you are able to create， because by so doing I am sure that you will do something more let’s say don’t mean more profound, but something that that is much more felt as needed and is much more felt that just standing on the ground, the landscape, and the soil that is there than would like to be.

11.

那您接下来的计划是？So, what’s your next plan?

我在1961年毕业，我开始旅行，到丹麦，罗马，然后住在罗马的西班牙学院。不幸的是自1965年之后我就开始了我的实践，至今已经50多年了。相对于我对建筑师的事业的热忱，我同样也非常渴望退休，总体来说，我还是有许多别的兴趣爱好的。当我看到办公室的员工在电脑前绘制草图的时候，我非常高兴仍然会被我们正在做的事业所吸引，但实话说，我并没有工作得非常愉快，我感受到了工作的局限性。我们并没有非常巨大的项目，工作室也就20-30个人，但是我们有足够多的项目去赚钱，因此我并没有疯狂的去接更多的项目，我希望在工作的同时能为自己的兴趣活着，此刻我想满足放松自己的愿望。因此我想寻找我热衷的研究方向，这些方向此时此刻更加吸引我。我还需要整理一些文件，添加文字并出版。我希望这本小册子能更明确的表达我的随意性和必然性的设计理念。

与此同时，你可能知道，在过去的12年里，我曾参与酿酒并把我的葡萄酒推向市场。这让我更关注人造产品之外的实质性的东西，就像你提供的酒。它确实是一个人造产品，但它同时还被土壤、天气和意外的情况影响品质。这几年来我会有相当繁忙的日程安排。

Well, unfortunately, I graduated in 1961, I travelled to Denmark, and to Rome, living in the Spanish Academy of Rome. But, since 1965 when I started my practice and now, theres almost 50 years. You are considering that I graduated in 1961; therefore, as much as I feel more eager and make work. I would like to work as an architect. I think retiring as much as I have for pleasure – overall pleasure. I still feel pleased when seeing over the drafting boards of the computer screens of the people working in the office. I still feel myself rewarded and attracted by the work that we do. And in the meantime, lastly, I will keep alive my practice. But, to tell you the truth, I am not merrily running. I know that my practice has been limited. I have not I don’t have a very large practice. I have between 20-30 people at most. But then, I have been able to have enough work, and I have had the fortune to being involved in enough projects to feel that what I wanted to say and what I could say as an architect has been said; therefore, I am not in this moment let’s say mad for just getting any work. I hope in the meantime to keep working as much as my interest is alive, and I hope in this moment, I would like to satisfy and live myself relaxed. That anybody knows better than oneself the flows of what you didn’t achieve. And therefore, I would like the fulfillment and the achievements I am looking for and following the directions of research of study that are attracted more to me. Besides that, I would like put clean some papers I am working on. I had many things that were published but that are now difficult to be found and put some writing together. I need to finish a small booklet that I hope will be more clear about the concept of arbitrariness and necessity these kind of counterpoints.

And then, besides that as you probably know, for the past 12 years, I have involved in making wine. And I am starting to put wine on the market, and I would like to pay attention to that because that links you with something that has substantiality of what is not just only human product.It is indeed a human product as much as in the way that you deliver the wine is so important for what the wine ends up being. But it is also the earth, the soil, the weather, the unexpected conditions – to feel all those contingencies just making what contains about you is also so rewarding. Then, I have a rather busy agenda for the years to come.

后记

By 王耀华Yaohua Wang

和Moneo的聊天里，他谈到了他自己制的红酒。“红酒确实是一种人造产品, 人对最终酒的品质有很大影响。但是，它同时又结合了大地，土壤，气候，以及一系列不可预测的情况。去感受这些偶然，才能收获丰厚的回报。” 我想，这不也正是Moneo对于建筑的态度么。

很想品尝一下Moneo制的红酒, 看看和他的建筑是不是一个味道。

More: Rafael Moneo拉菲尔·莫内欧