gooood Interview NO.15 – Hua Li
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Dec 16, 2022 10:18 AM
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gooood团队采访世界各地的有趣创意人，欢迎您的推荐和建议。 第15期为您奉上的是 迹·建筑事务所 的华黎。更多关于他： TAO on gooood 。 gooood team interviews creative from all over the world. Your recommendations and suggestions are welcomed! gooood Interview NO.15 introduces Hua Li | Trace Architecture Office . More: TAO on gooood .
TAO迹·建筑事务所现在正在招聘人才，有意者请点击这里
Interviewgooood x Hua Li
1.您现在的创作方向与最初创业时截然不同，为什么会出现这样的转变？ Your recent projects are totally different from those you designed at the beginning of your career. Why did such changes occur?
也不能说截然不同吧，只是在项目类型、尺度上有些变化，一开始时做过一些城市项目，大都未能实现。对建造、材料的兴趣使我转向小尺度，这样更切近建筑本体的问题，也相对更能够实现自己的想法。建筑师对项目的整体把控能力也是需要一点一滴积累的。
I don’t think they are totally different. I think there are just changes in project type and scale. At the beginning, I have done some urban projects that have not been built. My interest in construction and material drove me to small-scaled projects, which are focused on architecture itself and easier to interpret my thoughts. The ability to manage the whole project needs to be improved through work.
▼ 高黎贡手工造纸博物馆，Museum of Handcraft Paper（点击蓝色链接看更多，click HERE to see more）
▼ 保山新寨咖啡庄园，Xinzhai Coffee Manor
▼ 青普品牌酒店之塔下土楼店，Qingpu Hotel
▼ 海口寰岛实验学校，Huandao High School
▼ 宁夏贺兰山嘉地酒庄，Mount Helan Jade Vineyard
▼ 荣成天鹅湖观景廊，Rongcheng Swan Lake Viewing Pavilion
2. 您近几年因为侧重乡间地头和自然环境里的建造赢得了“在地建筑师”称号，您如何看待“在地建筑师”这一称号？ In recent years, most of your projects are in the countryside with natural environment and they earned you the title of “in-situ architect”. What do you think of this title?
建筑只要与所在的场地、周边环境找到有机与内在的关系，其实都是在地的，并不一定非要在乡间或自然当中，在城市里一样可以在地。因此”地”不必狭义地理解成某一类环境，而是每一个项目所处环境的具体特征，例如场地的地理、地质特征、当地的气候、历史、生活方式等，而当建筑与这些因素产生千丝万缕的联系以后，就是在地的，就像植物与土壤的关系。
If a building has inner connections with its site and surroundings, it could be considered in-situ. It means that not only architectures in the countryside, but also those in the city could be in-situ architecture. “situ” is not just a type of environment. It includes specific site features like geography, geology, climate, history and lifestyles. When architecture involves with these elements, it is in-situ, like plant grows from the soil.
▼ 岩景茶室，Rockview Teahouse（点击蓝色链接看更多，click HERE to see more）
▼ 四分院，Split Courtyard House（点击蓝色链接看更多，click HERE to see more）
3. 您曾说过：“我第一次去场地，如果场地有东西可以打动我，我就做，不然就不做。”，现在大多数的城市场地缺乏灵性或者说乏味，您是以什么样的态度应对城市中的这些场地和设计机会呢？如果您被委任在缺失地景特征的城市用地中设计重要建筑，你会如何处理？ You said: “When I visit a site for the first time, if there’s something touching me, I would do the project If not, I would just reject the commission.” As most urban sites are “generic”, what is your attitude in such sites? If you are commissioned to design in a city plot with landscape, what would you do?
现在也的确会碰到比较乏味和中性的场地，就像白纸，场地本身没有带来具体的能触发设计的东西，这种情况下设计会更多关注建筑的内部秩序，寻找空间组织、结构、材料的意义，去营造一个自足的世界。
有不重要的建筑吗？ 建筑常常因为所谓的”重要”而被贴上附加的意义，超出了建筑本身。 ”重要”其实是个幻觉，容易诱使建筑师去”发明创造”，掉入光环中自我陶醉。对我来说不存在重要建筑，所有的建筑都重要，都需面对建筑本身的具体问题，场地关系、尺度、材料、与人的关系等等，建筑应该避免为了”重要”而空泛。
It is true that some sites are neutral and boring like a piece of white paper that nothing could inspire me to design. In such case, I will pay more attention to the inner sequence of the building, looking for its spatial organization, structure and materials to created a self-sufficient world.
Is there any architecture that is not significant? The label “significant” always gains additional meanings on architecture. I believe that “significant” is just an illusion that entices architects to “invent and create” and feel self-complacent in its halo. For me, there’s no such significant architecture. All architectures are important and architects should solve concrete problems of location, scale, material and relationship with people while designing. Architecture should avoid being vague and general due to “significance”.
4. 以Siza为代表的一系列注重场所文脉的建筑师所设计的建筑通常与场所特征紧密相连并能从某种角度升华环境，这样的作品通常很难让人联想到具体的物质类比，比如 “钱币”“树”。不少公共建筑在无个性特征的用地中设计建设出来，并被冠以概念化与象形的称呼，比如“鸟巢”“大裤衩”，“灯笼”。您是如何看待公共建筑以及与这些建筑被国民象形文化起名的情况？ The architects, represented by Siza, who value context of the site somehow distill the architecture by connect it with the environment. Their works are difficult for people to find an analogy like “coin” or “tree” to describe. However, many public buildings are located in a neutral site and simplified as signs, like “bird’s nest”“big pants” and “lantern”. What do you think of these public buildings and the situation in which the buildings are named by form?
象形起名是国民的权利，无可厚非。但建筑师不该把设计建立在简单的象形概念上当成一种习惯。倒不是说建筑不能象形，而是象形不应该简化、抑制对建筑更深入的思考。一旦象形成为一种取巧的表达和沟通方式，设计就变得廉价和缺乏深度。
It is people’s right to name a building by what it looks like, but architects should not design just by a simple, pictographic concept. It does not mean that architecture should not be pictographic. It means that the analogy should not be simplified to a level that avoids architects from deeper consideration of architecture. If the pictographic character becomes a tricky way in expression and communication, the design will be cheap and superficial.
5. 三里屯的将将甜品店看似不起眼，但算得上是城市更新中的小尺度范本，人人都可以感受到的其在环境，自然，美好生活之间的和谐。比如将将甜品店在大众点评网的上千条评论中，被大多数顾客从不同角度表达了对环境与建筑的赞美和喜爱。请分享多一点关于这个建筑的情况。此外对您而言，建筑使用人数的多寡是否重要？在城市核心地段设计人人都可以触及的美好建筑是否比在偏远地段的设计建筑更有意义？同时，您如何看待建筑的时代性？ The TiensTiens dessert shop in SanliTun is a good sample of small-scaled renovation in the city. People could feel the harmony between environment, nature and cozy life in this small building. From the thousands of comments of this shop in DazhongDianping, we can see that people express their love for this building and its environment from different angles. Could you explain the architecture a little more? Is it important to you whether many people use the building or not? What do you think of the epochal character of architecture?
这个建筑的场地是在左右相邻建筑之间的一个夹缝空间，只有60平米的场地里面还有两棵大树。但旁边建筑的屋顶可以被利用。夹缝本身是消极空间，但临街有商业价值，所以做了这个甜品店。场地很小，又有两棵树，因此空间就以围绕这两棵树螺旋上升的方式展开，不同标高的楼层形成一些看与被看的视线关系。最终把人引导到屋顶的大平台，建筑的屋顶则形成继续向上的几个平台，可以在不同位置感受树荫带来的惬意。这个建筑的外部形态没那么重要，有趣的是人在里面以及屋顶平台上所获得的空间体验很丰富，给人的感受远远不止60平米。这个场地就是当年北京很有名的藏酷loft酒吧所在，后来拆掉了。当时的记忆犹新，没想到多年后在同一场地上设计了这个甜品店，也算是和这个场地有缘，有意思的是：树还是那些树，城市却不停地在改天换地。
The architecture is sandwiched between the neighboring buildings. The site area is only 60 sqm and there are two large trees on it. The roof of the nearby building is available. The crack space itself is negative but as it is along the street, there is business value and the program is decided to be a dessert shop. The space spiraled up and unfolded along the two trees, encouraging visual connections between different-height levels, and ended by a spatial roof terrace. On the roof, some terrace raised up, enjoying the shade of the trees from different directions. The appearance of the building is modest. It provides various space experiences interior and on the roof, which makes people feel that the space is much more than 60 sqm. The famous Cangku loft Bar was on this site many years ago and the memory of it never faded in my mind. It might be destiny that I could design the dessert shop on this site. The most interesting thing is, the trees are still the trees while the city is changing day by day.
▼ 甜品店外观，external view of TiensTiens Cafe（点击蓝色链接看更多，click HERE to see more）
▼ 甜品店内平台错落，platforms on different heights
▼ 屋顶平台，roof terrace
▼ 剖透视图，perspective section
建筑如果能让更多的人触及并感受美好当然是好事，但也不能因此说在城市核心就比偏远地段更有意义。关键不在于地点或人数多少，而在于建筑自身的质量。
建筑的时代性主要体现在其表征的一面，例如建筑外在的形象以及建筑的使用方式都具有时代性，但是建筑中的某些东西是超越时代的，那应该还是其难以言说的精神作用，正如我们在很多留下来的历史建筑中感受到的。这也是为什么建筑的废墟往往带给我们精神上巨大的震撼，因为那些表征的东西已不在，剩下更本质的东西。
It is good that more people could feel the beauty of a building, but you cannot say that buildings in the center of the city contain more meaning than those in the countryside. The key feature is the quality of the architecture, not the location and number of visitors.
The epochal character of architecture mainly reveals on some superficial features like form and functions. However, the obscure spirit of architecture is beyond time and we can feel it in many historic heritages. It is why the architecture ruins are always shocking. The features on the surface are disappeared and only the essence is remained.
▼ 伊犁马场草图，sketches of Yili Horse Ranch Resort
▼ 伊犁马场模型，model of Yili Horse Ranch Resort
6. 当你开始一个设计时，设计触发点的情景是如何产生的？其中你认为最重要的品质是什么？ What situations would inspire you to start a design? Which quality is the most important for you?
设计触发点往往始于对一些基本问题如尺度、空间原型的思考，而这些思考又是由场地或建筑类型触发的。例如设计一个在高地上的学校，我想创造一个开放而能够到达边缘的地面空间，与远处的地平线产生视线联系。这一想法正是来自高地这一场地条件的触发，并由此产生把建筑架起来等一些列动作。又如一个幼儿园，首先想到的是创造一些不同的尺度给儿童以刺激他们对空间的感知，这里既有符合儿童身体特点的小尺度，也有超出日常经验外的巨大尺度，正是这些不同尺度的并置（甚至是错乱）产生了一种想象，就像儿童想象一个巨人的房子，而对于城市这个房子又如一个放大的童话屋。
The design always begins in the consideration of basic problems like scale and prototype and those thoughts are inspired by site. For instance, if I am going to design a school on a highland, I would like to create an open floor space reaching the edge, responding to the distanced horizon in vision. The idea comes from the site condition of highland and from this point the building is designed and lifted. When it comes to design a kindergarten, I would think of providing objects in different scales to stimulate the children’s perception of space. There are small things in children’s scale as well as large objects, which are beyond their experience. Imagination is generated from the mix of various scales. To children, it is a house for giants but to city, it is an amplified dollhouse.
▼ 广州蔷薇国际幼儿园，Guangzhou Rose International Kindergarten
▼ 千渡东山晴长江项目小学模型，model of Qiandu Elementary School
▼ 千渡东山晴长江项目小学草图，sketch of Qiandu Elementary School
7. 经历众多乡建实践后，您发现了传统建造技术的哪些局限性？同时，也请分享您对传统材料与建造模式的几个代表技术改良案例。 After many architectural practices in the countryside, what are the limitations of traditional construction method in your opinion? Could you share some examples of improving local materials and construction method?
传统建造技术的局限主要还在于它赖以生存的土壤因现代化的影响而逐渐缺失。 过去它是建立在资源生态、工匠技艺、文化认同等这样一个完整系统的基础上，现在这种系统已经被改变甚至消失。导致了传统建造技术的尴尬处境。例如2010年在腾冲做造纸博物馆时木结构仍是当地乡村主流的建造体系，但短短一两年后随着木材价格和人工成本的上涨以及路的修通使得混凝土等现代工业建造体系在当地逐渐成为主导。一种建造体系如果用的越来越少，工匠的技艺也会逐渐失传。这是一个普遍的问题。
The local environment is losing under the effect of modernization and it causes limitations to traditional construction method. The foundation of traditional construction method is composed of ecologic resource, craft and cultural identity. This system has changed even disappeared as modern construction took over, which leaves traditional construction in an awkward situation. When I built the Museum of Papermaking in Tengchong in 2010, wooden structure was dominant in the local construction system. However, in only one or two years, modern industrial building system using concrete became the main trend due to the rise in prices of wood and labor. If one construction system is used less and less, the technique would be lost correspondently. This is a universal problem in today’s architecture.
▼ 结构细节轴测图和1：15模型，detail axon and 1:15 timber structure model
▼ 1:6 木结构框架模型，1：6 timber structure model
8. 去年编辑参观迹·建筑事务所时注意到一些正在设计中的项目给人的感受相当本真，有回归原始的势头，粗犷而有力。建筑的体量向下挖，有个方案还在地下形成了壮观的洞穴。请问您如何看待建筑与大地的关系？ We visited the office of TAO last year and found some under designing projects that are rough and robust, giving a sense of primitive architecture. The architecture volume was buried underground and in one project, it even formed a grand cave. What do you think of the relationship between architecture and the ground?
建筑与大地基本就两种关系，属于大地或脱离大地，对应了下沉与抬升、重与轻的相对关系，因而也具有不同的建构方式。你看到的恰好属于前者。建筑与大地的关系看似基本，在设计中其实很重要，因为触及到建筑和自然的基本关系，是建筑中诗意的基础，包括与天空、地平线等的关系也类似。例如，在”庭院是天空流入屋舍的通道”（博尔赫斯）这样的诗句中可以精确的捕捉到庭院与天空的关系，它道出了建筑存在的基本状态。
Architecture either belongs to the ground or separates from it. Correspondingly, a building would be heavily buried or airily elevated, consequent in different construction methods. What you have seen is the former type. The relationship between architecture and ground is important in design as it touches the basic relationship between architecture and the nature. It is, as well as the relations with sky and horizon, the poetical foundation in architecture.As Borges’ poem said: “The patio is the slope down which sky flows into the house.” It precisely described the relationship between patio and sky, illuminating the basic status of architecture presence.
▼ 深圳万科留仙洞项目，Wanke Underground City-Sunken Void
▼ 天池游客中心模型，model of Tianchi Visitor Center
▼ 天池游客中心草图，sketch of Tianchi Visitor Center
9. 目前您最希望设计或者挑战的项目是什么类型的？为什么？ What type of project you want to challenge the most and why?
以前曾经最希望设计图书馆或是宗教建筑这类精神性的空间，现在觉得其实任何类型里都可以产生精神性的空间，所以反而对类型没有太明显的偏好了，倒是很希望有机会做住宅，不管是集合住宅还是独立住宅，住宅贴近日常生活，不需要宏大叙事，足以使建筑回归本身，而住宅要应对生活的万象又可以让建筑超越自身，它给了建筑表达的自由。
I have said that I wanted to design libraries or religious buildings with spiritual spaces before. Now I realize that spiritual spaces could be generated from any type of architecture and my preference to project types is not that strong. To be honesty, I hope that there’s chance for me to design residential buildings, no matter amalgamated dwellings or detached houses. Residential buildings are close to daily life and the architecture could return to its essence without grand narrative. As residential buildings have to deal with various phenomena of life, it gives architecture freedom in expressing and makes the building beyond its functions.
10. 当下，您觉得自己的最大挑战是什么？ What is the biggest challenge for you now?
如何突破自己。设计如何能从已有的思维和审美的惯性中跳出来去做一些新的尝试，觉得想尝试一些有陌生感的东西。建筑师持之以恒地工作很重要地就是创造出自己的范式，这种范式也是建立在他自己的趣味、信仰之上的，然而一旦形成范式，范式本身可能又成为一种桎梏。这时你又需要思考如何能从这种桎梏中解脱出来以获取新的东西。这种不断建立与突破的探求过程可能就是逐渐了解自己的一个途径。
It is how to push my limits. I always want to jump out of the existing thinking and aesthetic model to try something new, something unfamiliar. It is important for an architect to create a design model of himself after continuous working. The model would reflect his interest and belief in design. However, when the model is fixed, it might in turn become a shackle that constraints the architect’s thought. You have to break the shackle to acquire new things. Architects could gradually understand more about themselves through the process of making and breaking out the model.
11. 您未来的计划是什么？迹·建筑事务所未来的发展的趋势会是什么？ What is your plan for the future? How will TAO develop in the future?
事务所仍然持续着对材料、建造、结构、空间等建筑学核心问题的兴趣，但在项目类型上也在做不同的尝试，不同地段、尺度跨越也蛮大的，我们最近也在做城市地段的项目。如前面谈到的，事务所关注的是每一个项目的具体特征，而不会局限于简单的归类，对建筑的探索在任何尺度、类型上都可以展开。因此未来的项目类型会更多样。事务所从规模到工作方法上在一定阶段内还会延续目前的状态，不会盲目地扩张，团队保持一个合理的经验层级结构，在方法上仍然比较重视大比例实物模型来推敲设计，以获得对尺度、材料、氛围准确的把握，像电脑建模和模拟的方式因为缺失了身体的介入，我从根本上是不认同的，它只能作为一个表达的辅助工具。 建筑设计的过程一定要有身体的介入，手绘、模型都有身体性，是不能替代的。所以说建筑设计还是一个身体力行的工作，不存在捷径。
Our office will keep focusing on the core aspects in architecture of materials, construction, structure and space and we will try something new in projects of different scales and locations. We are also doing some projects in urban conditions recently. As I have said before, our office values the specific character of each project and will not be limited in its category. The exploration of architecture could be unfolded in any type and scale of project, so that in the future our works will be more diverse. Apart from project types, our office will continue its scale and working method. It means that our reasonable team structure will stay unchanged and we will stilluse large-scale physical models during design process to exactly handle the scale, materials and ambience of the building. I don’t think that using digital models and computer simulation could reach the same result, as physical intervention is scarce. It is necessary to physically involved into architecture design that hand drawing and physical model are irreplaceable. There’s no shortcut in architecture design and architects should achieve it by their own hands.
▼ TAO迹建筑事务所，TAO office
▼ 华黎观察模型，Hua Li is observing the model
